Afghanistan: Lessons from the Field, Part 2

Episode Summary

Rashidah continues her interview with Anthony and Kay, veteran missionaries to Afghanistan. In this episode, Anthony and Kay begin by sharing what happened after the Taliban lost control of Afghanistan following the September 11 attacks.

This is Part 2. Listen to Part 1

Episode Transcript (Beta)

Rashidah: Welcome back to my conversation with Anthony and Kate. Veteran missionaries to Afghanistan who are [00:01:00] here to share more of their firsthand observations and experiences with us. So Anthony and Kay, let's talk about the period after the Taliban lost control of the country.

How did things change for the Afghan people and what was life like then?

Anthony: So going back to 2001, there was a, actually a very fast transition. Because people have been very upset with Taliban ways they weren't as popular. Certainly as when they first started and things had gotten oppressive and they recognized their own country had, was being hijacked in many ways to be a training ground for terrorists and things.

They didn't even know what was going on. So they were ready for change. Then that quick transition of them being. A lot of it done by Afghans themselves who were, who were really leading that fight. There was this time of rejoicing [00:02:00] or at least of optimism. There were even, you know, five years of really optimistic hope that things are going to change on a lasting basis.

The rules were gone about music and dancing and still a conservative culture underneath, so that didn't go away. But there was really just a lot more optimism. So things do began to develop very fast. The world poured in resources, people, a number of Christian workers. They're huge. I mean, there was huge number of increase there.

There was some more openness in that there were not the same authoritative control. The culture is still really the limiting factor because it's still conservative, but there were even believers who were gathering Afghan beleivers, meeting more open. And services that would be known to other believers, but they necessarily hadn't met each other, which was unusual for them to meet, to openly more holidays and other things like that.

So it was [00:03:00] an open time and a lot of education happening. A lot of prosperity to Afghans came back, you know, they were able to get good jobs and get good pay infrastructure was rebuilt. So a lot of things work good. And unfortunately, some of the, the corruption never actually changed. People were siphoning off money.

Apparently I don't have, we heard stories of it. And there was beginning to question like, oh, all this money's coming in, but it's not getting to every everybody's post. Which is a bit, some of their disillusionment unrealistic expectations on their part. And we would say, you know, it took, you know, a short time to destroy this country.

You can't rebuild it quickly, you know, it's going to take years and they understand that. So those are some of the big changes.

Kay: Yeah. I think it gave anyone who was wanting to have freedom of conscience in any direction. [00:04:00] It was the best of the years for that. There was an opening after 2001 that was unprecedented for Afghans to consider other ways of doing things, at least on the surface is Rob Sandy.

Of course, worldviews don't change quickly, but there was opportunity. Yeah. And Kate, can you just talk to us a little bit specifically about how things changed for women? Well, women of course were starting to. We've had the opportunity to be educated. And the younger women, of course there was a whole 20 years now of women's education.

That didn't happen as it had it for their parents. And with that also came women that were working more alongside of foreigners and learning things that. They never had learned, you know, even mentoring. I think there [00:05:00] was a lot of mentoring of identity in choosing your course of life. You know, you can actually make more choices they could at that time.

But education of course is the big thing and jobs. That's what they got back. Again, many, many women were able to do things that they hadn't done in a long.

Anthony: And actually at the same time, there was actually, you can say thanks to the top of it. And there was a baby boom that had already happened. And so these kids were born under the Taliban or around that time, they had a huge birth rate during those times.

And now those, all those kids were coming of age, getting educated, the mobile phones became available. And then after a certain time, you know, smartphone, so you can gain access to internet having personal computers at home. Became a way people are accessing information, bigger sets of ideas than, than what they've been raised with.

So a lot of Afghans came [00:06:00] back into the country who were very well-educated outside and started programs in schools and businesses. So a lot of cultural change happened. TV stations, flourish. Yeah, so good and bad came back too. So there was, I mean, by the title nine standards, there were some loosening of the morals, which we wouldn't necessarily say were all necessarily great ways.

They enforce morality, but there was a freeing of the culture and the Afghans could, could choose a lot more paths. And so lots of change happened and there was some tolerance growing tolerance of religious differences. Well, A lot of Africans wanted a more secular way of life. And that meant, okay, we can tolerate people who want to leave their birth religion and choose another path though.

Culturally, they'd say the society around us may not tolerate it. So we can't protect you from what the community around us will do [00:07:00] for people who leave Islam. But maybe some families would be open to it and put up. So those are the big changes that actually continued have continued until just a month ago.

Rashidah: Yeah. And so what do you want the world to know about the underground and behind the scenes work that God has been doing in Afghanistan over the past few decades?

Kay: Well, actually it started way before we arrived. And God is working. He, he was revealing it more in every successive change of government.

Actually Christians first came to Afghanistan to be the light of Christ in the sixties and seventies. The first church that was ever built in Afghanistan was built for foreigners in the late. [00:08:00] And it lasted for three years in the country. And then it was ordered to be torn down because it was seen on the skyline when you came into Cabo airport with the steeple and everything.

But it was asked to be torn down in the early seventies and the, by the Lula's religious leaders and they bulldozed the church. Before that happened. Some Christians actually went some foreign. Christians went to the king at that time and said to him that if you tear down this church, God will bring down your government.

And actually that did happen within a year. The government of Afghanistan had the king was out of the country. There was a coup that took the, his cousin came in and the Soviet. Union came in and war began ensued. And there's [00:09:00] been since then over 40 years of fighting. That has not actually

Anthony: that yeah, that momentous occasion.

Yeah. It was the beginning of a downturn. Yeah. That led to the Soviet invasion, 79 and then the civil wars and telephone, some would say, yeah, it was because of that. But what God was doing really in the midst of it was, is also breaking down the barriers. God uses terrible situations in order to bring about his glory.

So lots of refugees went to Pakistan. Iran heard the gospel in back as believers. He heard it in country and they were now open to it in a different way. And so that with every success of change, as Kane mentioned, there was a growth in some ways of the church, because more people were beginning to question what they really, what was really true.

And where are they going the right way? And that continues to this day. So I think even with this [00:10:00] new regime of Taliban, there's even more people who are going to be saying, yeah, we've tried this, it didn't work last time. We've tried, we've tasted some different ways of thinking in the world and some and more are probably going to be saying, yeah, We want a complete revolutionary of our, of our worldview, of what we believe and how we think.

And we don't want to throw out the concept of God, but we don't want to follow it in the same way that we've been taught. And we've been conditioned that we have to do it this way. So I think that's, what's going on behind the scenes. So yeah, the church continues to grow. There's still believers that meet inside.

Quiet. Strangely just two months ago Afghan brothers and sisters were able to register for the first time as such with their national identity card listing. You said we are Christian, and that was a really bold move. [00:11:00] And it was finally recognition that there could be a religious minority called something close to, you know, the term ISA.

We means basically Christian. Within the country. That's the first, there'd never been that before as being an Afghan and a, a follower of Jesus was something new. So, but it's happened now. It's completely reversed now. And those people are probably have left. They're quiet about it. So God is doing something with each change to bring about some growth, but it's dangerous for them.

Yeah. They, they are in. Danger for their life though. Africans are clever. They have ways of moving around. There's not always a great system for, you know, people can change names or they don't always use last names anyway. So there's different ways they can evade some have chosen to leave the country.

Some have chosen some [00:12:00] African beliefs have chosen to stay and to be a witness for the next generation.

Kay: I think that from the beginning, Even though there has never been a visible church building. So since the late sixties since the destruction of the only church that was ever built as a building to be a church, there has never been a building.

It's one of the few countries in the world that does not have a single building called the church, except at the Italian embassy for a short time, they had a chapel there and. Even accessible to anyone outside embassies yet, yet that we know the church is people. And we know that followers of Jesus are called from all places as they meet together.

And that has not stopped. And the coming and going between families has helped that a lot from other places. And to this day we have. [00:13:00] Yeah, there are many more thousands than when it first started. So even in the time that we have been engaged with Afghanistan, we have seen the progressive growth of the church and believers there.

Anthony: Okay. Do you want to talk about the and the narrative,

Kay: the narrative of what God does in countries is in scripture. And we often don't see scriptures as having that great of impact on cultures because we take it for granted that when people know how God deals with people, but in Afghanistan, the only story that's ever been told historically for over a thousand years has been the story in the Quran, which isn't much of a story.

It's more just the. People should do in order to please allow God, [00:14:00] however, in the, in the scriptures and the scriptures that we have as believers in God, through Jesus, we have a story of God dealing with people through his first attribute, which is love. And this comes to a country as very a new, a different kind of narrative than they've ever heard before.

When the, the U S and NATO forces came into Afghanistan in 2001, and the hopes to rebuild the nation, there was one nature piece that was missing. The entire Bible had not been translated in either of the two major languages of the country. And that was never part of bringing peace and stability to a country because of course they are very dominantly.

And we'll work on everything else, which I think God has allowed the whole world to see that it doesn't matter how much you [00:15:00] pay. You can't change people by paying for things to happen for them. But there has to be a worldview change and often a new narrative. So there's a believer, Mike. Said to me, not his real name, but I'm using that, that the only way that Afghanistan will ever change in his viewpoint as that they have to have a new narrative, a new story.

And there has never been a story in Afghanistan for love and forgiveness from God, God asks for the revenge. He takes vengeance and he asks his followers to also take revenge on evil, to stamp out. And to do it with power, not in meekness, not in love, certainly not through someone like we understand he is through Christ coming to earth to be a [00:16:00] servant.

So when Mike first started reading that he saw the Jesus film first as a Muslim, growing up in a strict traditional Muslim. He couldn't believe he did not know what was going to happen. He's watching the Jesus film and he seen this great prophet, do all these miracles and help people. And then as he's watching, they take him, they beat him and they look like they're going to kill him.

He doesn't know yet how they're going to kill him, but he is astounded. He can't understand why this is happening to this good person. He hasn't heard this story yet. And when he realizes they're going to kill him on this piece of. That, that they're erecting and they put nails in his hands. He is sure that any minute now he's going to call down from heaven and destroy all these people.

And he's hoping he's going to get to witness that because John God's judgment is such an awesome [00:17:00] thing to see, and he wanted this prophet to do that. And then he heard the most amazing words. He said, then that profit on the cross on the cross says, father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.

And he couldn't hardly watch the rest of the movie because he couldn't understand why that was happening. Why was forgiveness being asked? Did the most, at the worst time of this person's life, nobody ever forgives when they're dying, they always ask for. So that was the first time he started questioning that maybe there's a different story about God.

And later on, as he helped with different work translating the film and scriptures into his language, he said to me, Afghanistan will never change unless we have a story about God's. And this is the only story I've ever heard in my entire life that actually [00:18:00] God loves people and he forgives sin like this, like the way Jesus does when he first encountered Jesus, turning the other saying, you have to turn the other cheek.

He said, that's actually, can't be, we can't translate that into pushed you because that would, people would like. No good Afghan will ever think that's a good idea. And how can the world, can Jesus ask us to do something like that? So many things that just in the life of Christ just are so different than the way that he had grown up thinking the prophets, what were they like?

And and in the end dying I've said, Jesus, his blood on his head. Was his own. He never, he never killed anyone. He died so that people wouldn't die in their sins and Muhammad, on the other hand, didn't he died [00:19:00] peacefully and with the blood of others on his hand. So whether it's just, or unjust, there is a, been a lot of bloodshed in Afghanistan that only can be forgiven at this point, but revenge is still being called.

Because that's who God has been revealed. That's how they've seen God in the past. The Bible was not completely translated until 2008 in one of the languages of Afghanistan. And there's still not a complete Bible, only portions of it in the other main language of the country. So when we think about how a people has been influenced.

How can we expect people to change when they haven't received this narrative? Yeah. Yeah. Did you want to talk about the, the unseen work of Christian humanitarian workers? Were there many, [00:20:00] like, can you tell us about other people like you, who, who for decades have been going into the country? Not just the military

and that's that's.

Yeah, they are the unsung heroes, even though we know each other, we've been very quiet for years, you know, not, not to we're secretive, but we don't attract it. We don't want to undue attention because it would distract from humanitarian work and help. And the spiritual side that we get to minister, if we draw too much attention to it, that will make that go away.

Yeah. Th there's been hundreds, hundreds of Christian workers full on tent makers, working in jobs are running businesses, Christian aid and development workers by the hundreds as well. Probably more of those because of all the war years that have come in and, and worked alongside Afghans demonstrated befriended, welcomed, shared meals and [00:21:00] tea and life with Africans.

Who would then want to know this, the full picture of who, who the God is they serve. And they ask for the reason for the hope that you have within you, as it says in first Peter. So that's been going on for years and still continue to say, I mean, maybe not the exact moment now, but there are people still inside Afghanistan doing that.

So, yeah. And that will probably continue again, a telephone won't be able to, they need help. They did before they will. So it's very hard to argue against somebody who's doing good things in your country and they can threaten, you know, to not tell anybody. But people still ask questions and you're still free to answer questions.

So, yeah, there's been hundreds, thousands of aid workers, Christian aid workers from every country, you know, from Korea to Africa Australia to south America. Lots from north [00:22:00] America. Who've come from all over to represent the whole body of Christ, not just north Americans or Westerners, but you know, when they see Chinese brothers and sisters now, and they go, oh, they're they're Christians too.

Oh, then these Nigerians or these other Africans are like, oh, they're Christians too. And they often asked us, they said, It's like when you guys get together, you're from all from different places, but you seem to know each other, you recognize each other or like, yeah. That's, that's kinda what it is when you're a follower.

Yeah. We're family, even though we don't look alike, we're family. So they're like, huh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's kind of the, the role of NGO work and development work in the country. It's, it's made a huge impact. It's improve the lives and livelihoods of, of so many. And they haven't forgotten Afghans to see that they know the difference.

They know who did it, and in whose name it was done.

Certainly in the last 20 years for Afghanistan, I think that the [00:23:00] holy spirit called the entire church from all over the world. To focus for this window of time. We didn't know how long it was going to be open, but there was a call from the spirit of God to, to move to focus on Afghanistan.

Right now, as Afghans are leaving the country by the thousands and have also been flown out all over the world. They have gotten to know the rest of the world because of the last 20 years. And they are being welcomed by Christians from all over the world who have come to know Afghanistan. It certainly isn't just the U S there are many, many countries who not only sent humanitarian aid workers, but who died there.

And that's a, that is often a story, not told how many humanitarian workers for. The love of God for serving people, especially for loving [00:24:00] Afghans, have given up their lives without any weapon in their hand, except service in love for the people of Afghanistan. And I know Anthony and I both know over 20, about 30 people who have been killed as they serve Afghans.

Anthony: Yeah, African brothers and sisters, foreigners from outside the country caught in a fighting or explosions, but also just really out targeted killings and kidnappings killings and solely because they were there not just as foreigners, but as, particularly as motivated by their faith to be in that place.

So we don't use the word martyr lightly and to, because it's, it's loaded, but you know, these are people who are there because of their faith and they lost their lives. And [00:25:00] that has made an impact on, on even the Afghan believers. So, and they have paid with their lives many times as well, more than we could actually know, because we don't always know their stories.

Cause it happened quietly away from anyone eyes. Yeah. And that probably still continues to happen now.

Kay: So what are some specific ways that we can pray for Afghanistan and the underground Afghan church? So, yes, they need our prayers. Every time we hear a story about Afghanistan, there are believers in that story.

There are those that are seeking God, probably more than we'll ever know. They need. Fear being replaced by peace and understanding that God is taking care of them more than any country in the [00:26:00] world can do for them. Those who are considering leaving that they would have wisdom to know whether to stay or to go.

There are those who are called to stay and our prayers will help them to be able to stay and know that they. Not unseen or those who are on the way out, it's dangerous. And looking to God alone for that do pray for all who want to access scriptures. They, that will come often on phones in media and memory of verses that they know.

So pray that they will rely on the scriptures that they have heard. Listen to, and they will continue to have access to them. There are many people that are calling in now for to Afghan radio stations, where people are counseling and praying with them. So pray that they will find [00:27:00] those, especially those that are still in country.

Anthony: And I think praying specifically against fear. You shouldn't make no one should make decisions based around fear. We should make our decisions around based on faith. And you know, what has God asked you to do and told you to do? How has your so that's, in some ways how the television were able to win so easily is because they relied on fear.

People ran away and that's not what we want the believers to do. We want them to, to make decisions as God shows them. And that God is powerful enough to protect them where they are. So it's not necessarily. The best thing to leave. So it's a difficult thing to ask them to do, but it is something that we pray that God shows them exactly what to do and how to do it.

And then he can guide every single decision they make. And every step they take to be able to stay and be fruitful in that situation and be faithful, even if God does call them to be a martyr, [00:28:00] that he is able to protect them, even through that and care for their loved ones in their absence. Those are hard things.

It's really hard to ask believers to do that. We don't say that lightly because we have many friends who've done that already. And yeah. So if there's going to be real breakthroughs, it'll have to be because of faith being expressed in the country itself, and God is even able to overwhelm Taliban and push them and, you know, Even respect people's choices in those areas or, or they will be removed.

So

Kay: yes, and trauma, it's a nation of traumatized people and including the believers who are often doubly traumatized, because as we said earlier, it's hard to be an individual thinker. You know, there's always a group think family. And so whether they're left [00:29:00] behind which families right now, Afghan families, immediate families are often scattered over several countries.

And of course they're thinking always about safety, but also the disconnection and how, how they each deal with the deep pain and trauma that they have experienced. Both as a nation, as a people, but also as they follow Jesus

Anthony: and

Kay: they all need, they need to come to a place where they can see that God is able to meet them.

Anthony: Yeah. And there's certainly, as I dunno, 50, 75,000 Africans come to the U S as refugees, special immigrants, immigration visas, or just wind up here somehow as refugees. There are also traumatized, as Kay said, and need some, some care and the peace. They [00:30:00] need a peaceful setting, and sometimes they need to be away from other Afghans who have in some ways maybe it's not been a healthy situation because they're traumatized by one ethnic group against another or self appointed leaders, oppressing them, even in the U S context.

That's always something to be aware of as you're working with Africans here. Yeah. They're going to be coming in and needing a lot of things. And as, as traumatized people are, they're not always very thankful either. So you can't expect many thank you in return. You've got to invest time years even before they're they recognize what what's been done for them, but that's okay.

We're not supposed to just do it because we're thanked for it. God is our reward. So, yeah, helping Afghans as they come into our communities just saying, welcome. We're glad you're here. And how can we help you? [00:31:00] They need help filling out forms, applying for driver's licenses and aid programs and learning how to drive.

That's it. That's a big one. So They like their privacy as well. So yes, you can invite them into your homes maybe for a short time, but they'd really like to run their own house the way they like to. So they're going to need their own spaces to live and communities to do things in. And I always remind people, you know, remember these are people who've come from traumatized, religiously traumatized situations often.

As they become maybe curious about faith, we just say, you know, go slowly. They've, don't want to just change one religious system to another because they think it's, oh, these are just a different set of rules that needs to be followed and I'm not ready for more religious rules. So focusing on the relationship and understanding who God is and his character and that there's nothing you can do.

You know, you don't require works as a believer in [00:32:00] Christ. You believe on the Lord, Jesus Christ and, and it's grace, and it's a gift. It's not something you earn. So those are kind of new things that takes a long time for it to sink in before. And they may be curious about church, but the American church can be a confusing meeting to go to because they don't understand what's going on.

Why are these people dressed this way? That doesn't seem very reverent, maybe that the worship, the baby or the is too loud or, and it's just a strange cultural experience. It's I wouldn't even say it's the best first step for somebody who's inquiring. Sit with them, read the scriptures, explain things. If they do go to a service, what are they going to see?

What does it mean? What is it about, why do we do it this way? So that takes some time, but definitely study the scriptures with. Talk about your, your story, your own testimony of faith and let them ask a lot of questions and that you may be astounded by the questions they [00:33:00] ask.

Kay: Yeah. I would say they need to see how it's worked out.

You know, I think the basic thing is as believers in Jesus, we don't follow a rule book. We have a relationship with God through Christ and that is such a novel thing for anyone coming out of. It's not what are we supposed to do now? In fact, I'll go back to the story about Kobe. The first thing she asked is if I follow E ISA, what am I supposed to do now?

Am I supposed to go somewhere? Am I supposed to do something? What is my ritual? Give me the rituals now. And it's like, no, you're following you joined a family and yes, families have rules of engagement, but the most important thing is that you belong. Now, you, you seek. To learn about your family and and how you belong to it.

How do we belong to God? How does that work? And it's not because [00:34:00] we follow rules that we belong to God it's because we understand who he is. So, one thing I've often said is it's like sunglasses, On a day when you need to wear some glasses. If you put on sunglasses that are really, really dark, you'll just see a little bit.

If you put on the glasses that are lighter, it'll show you a totally different scene with Muhammad. There's a sunglasses that were put on looking at God. There's only one God, but it depends which glasses you're looking at through. At God, when you put on the Jesus glasses and we understand God through Jesus, we see a completely different God and a God that actually wants relationship with us, not just follow these rules that were given by a prophet, and then you can, you'll be fine.

Rashidah: So, do you have a final story that you could share to illustrate some of the things that you've talked about regarding sharing the love [00:35:00] and the truth of Jesus with Afghans?

Kay: Yeah. I think that the most important thing is that they get to see what Christians are like. So Z arrived in the states a few years ago as a Muslim woman from Afghanistan.

We invited her to our house, along with some others to have a, a meal. We had a cookout and that's some of the best time to meet somebody over food. Of course. So the first thing we did after we had said, we're ready to eat is we said, let's pray. And we didn't find out this till later, but we always pray before we eat to involve everyone else.

We thank God for our guests for bringing them to our house. And she said, I was surprised you did that. I felt like you were preaching at me. So I was a little bit offended at first, but then I thought that was really, that was very interesting that you felt comfortable enough just [00:36:00] praying in front of me.

And and then we asked her during that time, is there anything we can pray for you even before we left? But during the conversation, she would bring up questions about God. But even that first time, Questions about God are easy to talk about Afghans. They, they understand that God is going to be a part of conversations, but they, they will always often defend religion.

But if it's an open enough conversation to just talk about how you see God and what God has done for us. So it was a story about our relationship with God. She was really interested in. Just being invited by many different Christians that kind of knew each other, but attracted towards it. And gradually, gradually she was basically brought into Christian community in this state.

She actually became a believer in Jesus and was baptized [00:37:00] and has said that her story is that she just liked Christians so much. She wanted to be part of. These people that treated each other, like family members really like real family members. And she was particularly interested when I told her that if you move anywhere, we find somebody that's a Christian and you can go to the church there.

They will take care of you too, just like they have here. And similarly to what we mentioned before is that was the one thing that amazed them the most that Christians acted like they were actually brothers and sisters with each. And they trusted each other and they would help someone that another Christian had said, can you help this person they're coming to see you?

And she was so amazed at this connection of the body of Christ. So I think if we, as Americans, as we welcome Afghans, do it as much as possible [00:38:00] bringing into our communities into. The leading communities, not to a building, but to the real things that go on and show them what it means to have a relationship with God and a relationship with each other.

Thank you for sharing that story. It's a beautiful way to end this amazing conversation that we've had. Thank you so much, Anthony and Kam for joining us on Crescent project radio to share really timely. Insights and wisdom on Afghanistan and the Afghan church and how we can welcome Afghan refugees into our communities, into our lives.

Kay. Would you do the honors of closing our conversation in prayer?

Sure. Dear heavenly father. Thank you. That you are our father and that your church, our brothers and sisters all over the world. [00:39:00] Are praying to you right now, too, with those that are listening this well, Lord, we pray for a blessing on Afghanistan that you would in your mercy help people.

Who've been very traumatized and especially our brothers and sisters in Afghanistan, and those who are traveling all over the world are trying to find a place. To call home and all the millions of others who can't leave, who are Afghans, who are waiting to see what you will do for them. We look to you, our eyes are on you.

Father help us to be faithful in each of the places that you have put us. And the times in places that we find ourselves for are ordained by you so that we can. Your hands and feet, your eyes and your ears [00:40:00] and your words to bring love and truth to Afghans, wherever they are. Jesus name, we pray. Amen.

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