Afghanistan: Lessons from the Field, Part 1

Episode Summary

Rashidah interviews Anthony and Kay, who moved to Afghanistan in 1992 and experienced life there before, during, and after the first Taliban. Since relocating to the states nine years ago, they've ministered to Afghan refugees and immigrants.

Episode Transcript (Beta)

Rashidah: Hi, I'm Rashida and you're listening to Crescent project radio, where we believe we have a hope worth sharing. Today I'm honored to interview a couple who have a lot of firsthand insights to share with us. The people [00:01:00] of Afghanistan, the terrible situation that is unfolding there and the beautiful behind the scenes work of God that doesn't make the news headlines.

Anthony and Kay have been involved in work in Afghanistan since 1992. And they experienced life there before, during, and after the first Taliban. And since relocating to the states nine years ago, they've also had opportunities to welcome and minister to Afghan refugees and immigrants here in a Western context, Anthony and Kay, I'm delighted that you were able to join me today.

Welcome to Crescent project radio.

Anthony: Thanks. Good to be here.

Rashidah: Well, the first question that I wanted to ask. Because Afghanistan was not a place on many people's radar in the 1990s is [00:02:00] why did you go to Afghanistan? How did you wind up there?

Anthony: Well, thanks Rashidah. It's good to be here. That's a long question, but of course the short answer is always going to be because of God's calling, but it came about through different ways.

Kay and I are different in how we felt that calling. But for me, it began when I was, I really came into a personal relationship with the Lord when I was in university. And that was life-changing started to really understand the guts heart for the world. After I was challenged by a group that spoke to our campus fellowship and really saw the need there and realized, okay I know what God's done in my life, and I want him to be able to do that same transformation in other people's lives and start to have a particular [00:03:00] burden for the Muslim world.

And knowing that was the biggest need, the largest disparity of workers and were step by step, did a short term mission trip with an organization that we ended up coming back to. But Afghanistan came. More as a, well, it was, it came out of the blue. We'll say it was an unusual calling, but it was very specific in that it was, we were feeling called very much to places that according to Romans 15, 20 to 20.

To peoples and places beyond Richard, the gospel that's Paul's ambition he says was, so that was how we've kind of gravitated towards the place neither of us had been, but we felt a call to go there. Yeah. I think. I had lived in a large part of my life in west Africa. I had already been working [00:04:00] with Muslim communities, immigrant communities in Belgium and in the U S but when Afghanistan was presented to us as a place of need and where it seemed God was calling us.

I realize in my life, I have always wanted to go places where there are less Christians. And especially when somebody says, I don't think the church will ever really be visible there or established it's too difficult. And so I think Anthony and I both wanted to see God's glory in one of the most difficult places in the world.

Yeah. I think knowing the political situation in the humanitarian needs. You know, I just felt the sense that okay, to be a good neighbor, a UCA, somebody in need, and you want to, you want to help. And Afghanistan is one of those places. A lot of people had forgotten and there was a [00:05:00] lot of human needs. And we said, okay, I think we can do something.

We didn't have much particular skills or training for that context, but we were willing to learn. So we started in that.

Kay: 1992 was the first time we went into Afghanistan and we were starting to learn language then our first language. And we ended up bringing both major languages of the country. So we've been engaged with Afghanistan for 30 years now.

Anthony: So yeah, the only way in, at that time in to Afghanistan, and there was a civil war going on this. Was working with relief and development organization. So we worked with one that was working in country and it was well-established had a great reputation. But it was, it was a difficult situation in country because of the civil war.

And it was, had been, it continues to work there today. [00:06:00] Lots of development projects, great reputation well-known as a Christian organization. But not known, no one gets a say missionary visa for a place like that, or most Muslim countries, but they do welcome Christians to come in and to help. And they respect them for their, their sacrifice in order to do the work that they do to help.

And so that's the situation we walked into, knowing that it was going to be a challenge to do both development work and to have ambitions, to, to see Afghans come to Christ, to see them discipled, to see them formed into fellowships. And that would be a challenge. And yet there are ways, and there were people who were doing it and it's quietly, but.

The big impact, really for us, we didn't know much about development work, but it's something we've come to really admire a [00:07:00] lot. And how that physical helping people in times of need particularly is huge. It really makes a big impact on people's impressions and understanding, and the comments we'd always get back from our.

People we worked with or people who are beneficiaries of the healthcare programs, who we're working with were enough to show us. Yeah, this is a good thing. And this is obviously it's the right thing. It places God, but it was also making an impact in their spiritual lives as well as they asked, you know, why did you come here?

You know, you are from America, you don't have to be here. You don't have to be in a dangerous situation. Like. Why are you doing this? Now we could then go into our, our story and saying something about what God had done in my life and Kay's life and how God transformed us and gave us an [00:08:00] opportunity to really come to know him personally.

Rashidah: Wow. Can you talk a little bit more about the type of relief work, the type of development work that you did in Afghanistan?

Anthony: The, the NGO that we worked with had a lot of projects all over the board and education, health economic development, where you focused on healthcare. There's some hospitals around the country that are NGO had been associated with or had actually established and was going very well.

At that time when we started in 92, 93 because of the civil war, almost all of those hospital and the work that they were doing had been shut down because of a loss of the main hospital, the personnel Afghan personnel had been scattered and we were starting to gather them together again and rebuild so that we could continue on.

And so we did that [00:09:00] and that was what occupied most of my time. Was working with the African staff organizing them, reopening some facilities, smaller clinics, and then reestablishing a hospital again, that could again serve people. And, yeah, there's a longer story than that, but I'll stop. So a big question that people would like to understand is about the Taliban.

Rashidah: Can you tell us who is the Taliban and what was it like for you to live there and raise a family under their rule?

Kay: Yeah, so the Taliban came on the scene in Afghanistan, in the mid nineties. 1990s. Um, and we were living in the country as they rose to power from the first time. And in the beginning, they represented the most traditional aspects of [00:10:00] Afghanistan, which we were used to because as we learned language and culture, a lot of what the Taliban were bringing to the country was stability after a terrible civil war.

Killed half a million people. So people were longing for stability for the rule of law and in the end of anarchy. So that was where things that we welcomed as well, but very soon, all of Afghanistan and lesser the rest of the world understood that it was becoming a very oppressive regime for personal freedoms of people.

And they became increasingly more antagonism. To not NGO non-government organizations, foreigners in the country doing the work that was very needed by the people. So as we had had favor, as Anthony mentioned, we were able to do many different things in the country, but [00:11:00] gradually it just became more oppressive, more difficult.

And even as our three children were born during that time, we had some opportunities that. Good because we could go and almost anywhere in the country, it was under the control of the Taliban, but the rules were very strict about it. They are very Islamic rules of how foreigners had to act in the country.

And eventually in 1998, all foreigners were kicked out of the country under the first regime of Taliban. Some came back. But again, in 2001, after nine 11, everyone was expelled a second time for awhile. Yeah. Their rules are actually, they started off as a popular movement. People were supportive because as Kay said, the civil war had left such chaos, that people were really wanting more stability and, and they got it, [00:12:00] but it was at the price of their personal freedoms.

And so as they came in. They had great promises and then those kind of faded and they decided to enact harsher and harsher, strict measures. Some things they said were going to be temporary, like closing all women's schools and women not going to work where then changed. But for our people who had already suffered four years of, or more than that, of really war and civil war, it was still an improvement for security wise things.

Blowing up around them. So then yeah, the, the rules started coming in about men and women, not mixing women. Couldn't sit in the front seat of a car when they couldn't go out without the complete covering the child that he and the escorted by a male there were rules against dancing music pictures, taking video watching videos, [00:13:00] television.

So there was a lot of things that were really beginning to cut into the way of life for a lot of Africans though, it's always been a conservative country, so it's not like these were super unusual. Things had gone back and forth, but they had yet, they were just starting to have kind of broken through some of that.

And we're starting to move forward again when, when this came in. So it was tough to work under them. Quite religious rulers, or when you call religious leaders over every institution, every hospital, every department of the government, every everything had to have a Islamic teacher at the head who was often a figurehead often illiterate.

And so the official director of our hospital system was, was a semi trained, illiterate, religious. And he [00:14:00] made some decisions, but he really just was there to sort of enforce Islamic law within the hospital system. And to them, that was more important than life, those following those rules. And yeah, I could tell you more stories about that, but it's yeah, it was, it was harsh.

It was possible to work under them, but then it became harder and harder as it went along and eventually on foreigners had. Because it was such a clash of culture, I think. Yeah. So they are back again. And that's what everybody is asking. The second time is the 2.0 version the same will they go back? And that's actually, the actions will prove that as everyone knows, but Afghan people have lived under many, many different kinds of governments in the last 50 years.

They've actually tried almost every government. So far. [00:15:00] Yeah. So I mean, Africans are actually a very passionate people. I would say they're, they're committed to their own traditions, their own ways of life. They are long suffering. They are very patient in that sense. And that they'll put up with a lot before they really give, give up and, and change.

Which is part of the problem that it's hard to see a lot of change in a short period of time is because outwardly they may go give into different systems and change, but underneath, you know, there's a core that doesn't really like change or they're very suspicious of change. That's why it's considered a xenophobic nation.

Somebody that people who are afraid of things foreign, or at least don't like foreign with. Which we admire because they, they are very committed to their traditions, but it also makes change hard when it's good change that they [00:16:00] want, that, that some want and others don't want. There seems to be this reaction backwards after they've had so much change, they kind of revert back, which we saw in the last month happen.

So. But they are very passionate. I like to say it that way, because that's what they are there. They're committed to their own ways of life and thinking and doing things. And they don't like to be forced into doing things. They they don't really agree with. Hmm. And can you just tell us more about their culture and, and the people we love to hear more?

So of course Afghans are known for their hospitality and for their generosity, with whatever they have in welcoming a guest into their home. And they also are, it's a shame honor culture. So public shame is the worst thing that can happen to you worse than death. So there is oftentimes when [00:17:00] you have to just.

Yeah, you're present. Honoring, honoring people in person is very important in their home. And there is a protection when you're in someone's home as a guest. And I suspect that as many Afghans come to the U S that will be one thing that will be, it's always an expectation that guests, people take care of you when you're a traveler, when you're coming to a new.

And we were often told that even after 10 years living there, you're the guest in our country. We take care of you. And I've often thought how different that is when they sometimes move to other countries that people don't see. Those that come to America as our guests, that we need to care for. The expectations can be very high, both sites that are different.

They are very family focused. [00:18:00] So everything is done for the family it's group. Think not individual things. So you, you make decisions as a family and what is good for the group? Not just good for the individual. So for an example of African friend of ours said just recently, you know, if you bring a bag of oranges to a family, you're not, you can't just give something to one person.

There has to be enough for everybody. So a gift is, is to be shared, and that's a great thing. It's helped them survive so many struggles and so many ups and downs. They have a great support system, but in the same way, no one is it's difficult to leave that system and be, do something different against it.

And so it's hard to, to break that and have that you want to break it, but to do something different, you have to go against the grain. Swim against the tide. So there again, [00:19:00] that's reflecting, you know, they're committed to their traditions and there's its own unique dynamic that goes with that. You know, it goes without saying that they're modest, they value privacy, particularly men and women's separation.

You know, that even the most modern ones still have, are very cautious about men and women mixing who aren't related. So it's it reflects. So even all the things that Taliban are doing are reflecting some of the values of some of the people in Afghanistan, the more rural, the more areas, or usually more committed to the traditional conservative ideas.

And there are modern questions as well, but the ones who are now in power reflect that same element. That's the rural, the. Conservative traditional. And even sometimes what they enforce is not purely Islamic. It's really [00:20:00] just their conservative values from their villages that they're saying, this is how we dealt with it.

That's their interpretation and understanding of Islamic law. And we've had at times been in discussion with Afghanistan. They say, you know, when push comes to shove, if I have to decide. An issue based on purely Islamic law or tradition, I'll go with my tradition, my cultural tradition or our village tradition, which in some ways reflect some of the core values of Islam, but at some boys they differ.

So yeah, you've got that going on. It's a mix of their ideas of pure Islam. That's mixed with culture. And so just going back briefly to the Taliban. Are they, are they all past June? W where, where do the Taliban come from? Who are they recruiting from? So the telephone are a movement that began in the, you know, the early, mid nineties, early out of the chaos, as you already said, but [00:21:00] a lot of them are pushed tune, which is the dominant or the majority group not sorry.

It's about 40 to 45% of the population. So it's the main group, but not the majority. But they're not just solely pushed in and not all questions are Taliban. And they, they tend to come from the Southern regions, but which are more conservative, but a lot of their roots began in because their, their fathers and their brothers and their sons were killed in the war against the Soviets.

And they grew up in Islamic institutions in Pakistan in madrasa. And so those boys grew up often without much family and had been highly indoctrinated into the Islamic system. And as somebody else put it, not me, they said, you know, it's like these, these boys, these men grew up without mothers. Well, and actually in many ways they did, they didn't have family.

So a lot of the core cadre are those [00:22:00] and the ones who come from more rural areas or those who are just deeply committed to the same values. So, but they're not all pushed tune, especially nowadays they have recruited beyond that into other ethnic groups who are buying into their very religious really strict system of which in every people group, within Afghanistan, there's people who are deeply committed to the most fundamental aspects of Islam.

So that's their main draw. Yeah. So as you live there, You know, develop the roots there and relationships and friendships and through your work, what did you, what did God show you as you began to share the love and truth of Jesus with the Afghan people? Yeah, so we did riff just really live there. We did, we lived fully all the time in Afghan communities.

Our neighbors were always [00:23:00] Afghans. We had coming and going with that.

I would always get to know all the women that lived on my street and visit them regularly. And in a sense, that's what gave us the most security. There was that we were guests in their country and there was deep friendships where in the neighborhoods we lived with and it was sitting in. Spaces with them, particularly with women and children that I learned a lot about their lives, what their felt needs were how to respond with yes, what Jesus said about many different things that is love and truth oriented.

And an outside opinion. I did a lot of listening. I've often said, I feel like I was the ears and eyes of Jesus. [00:24:00] We often talk about the hands and feet of Jesus, but we often don't talk as much about the ears and eyes of Jesus when somebody knows they're being listened to and is seen and understood. That is part of that's the biggest expression of love before we, along with doing things for them?

Yes, we served in many different ways. We were always there for help. Many times we were asked to do way more than we could do. There was so many needs. You can't always address all the things that you wish you could, but you can listen to stories and listen to. What they're asking for. I love telling parables of Jesus and making them in, you know, connect with African culture.

In many ways, they make more sense in Afghanistan. The culture is much closer to that. [00:25:00] Jesus's culture, new Testament. And even in the old Testament, the stories of Genesis. Hmm. I was reading through Genesis with several, Muslim women that really liked those stories. And they would say many times Genesis is just like Afghanistan.

There are so many stories that we would do the same thing. It's God chaining through the stories of. Not, and seeing scriptures as the way God shows the narrative of how he has dealt with people, not just the rules that he has given people. So the biggest difference between the Bible in the Quran, ER, the stories.

And that's really important to just be able to tell and show how God has dealt with people. Since the beginning and that love and justice and truth, or all come from God. And they come through [00:26:00] the lives of people that are messed up and broken and broken for a long time. So I feel like there's always a story for every situation that I could listen to.

That there's something that happened similarly to that in the Bible. And then draw from that. Yeah. Kay was really good at sharing those stories with women. And a lot of the issues are very same. Like, like she said, about the old Testament, you know, family oriented. So issues of, of barrenness for women wanting children.

Not being able to have them. So yeah, lots of family issues that are, that scripture speaks to, and there's plenty of stories. And can I spend time praying with women, you know, that they would wanting a baby, you know, and seeing those things come through and not even just that the baby is born, but [00:27:00] how she was able to demonstrate prayer in Jesus' name.

It's amazing to them that they, they've never seen that you can pray impromptu without facing the right direction. You're out doing ablutions, you know, and that God hears the prayer in their language or any language. So those are the things she was really good at. And for me, my work was, you know, professionally, you know, working alongside Afghan doctors and nurses and other staff that.

Things would come up in conversation, like already mentioned that, you know, they ask, why are you here? What are you doing? Why would you want to come here? A lot of the conversations go like this. They'd say, well, you're here because your government must pay you or sent you. And they're like, no, we have no, no association with our government.

Our government isn't even in this country, at least at first, it wasn't until after. And they say, oh, well it must [00:28:00] be because you're earning a lot of merit in your religion to help for people. That's why you're, you're doing this. You're getting a better rewarding. And we're like, no, that's not actually how it works within our system.

All my sins are already forgiven. So through Jesus, you know, I don't need merit to, to cover them. And then they go, well, it must be because you get a lot of money. And I said, no, no, that's not it either. So. Okay. So why are you doing this? What, what are you doing here? And I said, you know, I, Jesus told a parable about what we call the parable Samaritan and the good Samaritan.

And I said, you know, there's I saw someone in need. And I knew that there was the right thing to do is to try to help the person in need. Even if I'm the unlikely helper I'm here to. And then that would often go into other questions about, well, what does your book say? What does your, your holy scripture say?

Oh, we've heard of your book, the NGL, the new Testament, but we've [00:29:00] never seen one. Do you have one? And then we'd go into that conversation and talk about it. So one thing led to another based around relationships trust, knowing the language, sitting with them, drinking tea sometimes for hours, you know, sharing food, sharing love.

And little things mattered. I was surprised sometimes at what things our friends would tell us later of, it's unusual for a man to help say, in the household or, and so I did that hanging out the diapers on the line, you know, after they're washed taking the laundry help with the dishes show concern for my wife not just the wages of.

Later I heard, oh, that's very unusual. What, why, why is that? So those kinds of things, and even how we treated pets in our house was one of the things that impressed. They're like you even show [00:30:00] kindness to your pets. You, you treat them very well. You must be really, really kind people. And I'm like, well, that wasn't part of my church planting strategy, you know, but okay.

That's fine. You know I'm glad it came out in ways that I wasn't expecting. Because that's the way it should be. So those are the kinds of things that, that I think made an impact that led to other conversations that, that moved us in deeper and responding to what God was already doing in their lives.

We had lots of conversations. It's always inviting them to Jesus, to know Jesus, I think all conversations. Me to lead there because Jesus is the one that they will get to know. God revealed himself to us through Jesus. And I think that's the one place that we will always, we're hoping to go with the conversation that even had a teacher ask me once when you pray, who do you see when you.[00:31:00]

And she said, I see light, you know, I want to go to the light. And I said, yes, that's true. God is light, but he's also revealed himself in the person of Christ. So I see Jesus when I pray, I'm talking through the mediation of Jesus to God himself, because God has shown us who he is through Christ know.

That's where you know, where wanting to go with conversations, but it's a, it's a little bit at a time. That is the main difference is seeing God through Jesus and yeah. And responding to those kinds of things that God was doing. For one way or another, some people had already had exposure to either Christian radio or the scriptures or conversations with somebody who was a Christian that they had questions about.

And it was enough. And there were certainly a lot of hard things going on in the country and their lives. [00:32:00] That was also pushing them at direction. A lot of disillusionment with the forms of religion that they had seen already and how it was making their situation worse, not better. And in contrast to what they understood in Western nations, Christians, as their understanding were coming and helping doing hospitals and schools.

A projects that helped people. They said, where, where are the other countries? There are co-religionists does Muslims, what are they doing? They built mosques. What, what good is that? It doesn't feed us. So, but then there were other opportunities of things from literally dreams. You know, people would have dreams of, of a man and white, glowing, right.

Ropes and telling them different things, you know, but those. Great. When they happen, they didn't happen to everybody, but it was really an opportunity to explain usually what those dreams meant. If it was clearly about Jesus. [00:33:00] Yes, we become dream interpreters. Can you give us an example? Can you tell us any specific stories?

Sure. There was a woman who I met. For the first time after her daughter, 11 year old daughter had just died from a stomach tumor. And the story started for Kobe when she went to the Capitol to a hospital with her daughter who finally, while she was there after having months of pain in her stomach, that was misdiagnosed.

At this hospital where there were some foreigners working told her that her daughter in fact had a tumor that was so large, that it was inoperable and she was dying of cancer basically, or dying from the [00:34:00] tumor and that all they could do for her was give her morphine to keep the pain away, but that she wasn't going to make it except for maybe a few weeks.

And it was the first time she realized that it really was no Afghan doctor had told her how serious this was. But at the time that she was told the diagnosis, the proper diagnosis, there was an American nurse there, a believer who told her. I will pray for you and asked her before she prayed, have you had any dreams or has your daughter had any dreams?

And she said, that's funny that you ask that because just a month ago, my daughter had a dream that a man in white came to her, asking her to come home with him. He was dressed like a shepherd and said, you'll be safe. You just come with. And she told her mom that in the morning and her mom [00:35:00] said, I don't know who that is.

But then as she was in the hospital, right before she went under morphine, it just to keep the pain away, she had had the exact same dream again. And she had just told her mother that man in white came to me again in my dream. And I don't understand that. And so right then she had said, would they, when they were, had been in Iran, they had heard.

Prophet ISA sometimes visited people in dreams and maybe that was profit Aesop, but we don't know anything about him. So my friend, when she asked her, has your daughter had any dreams? This is when she told her about these two times. And of course this nurse was able to tell her, I know who that is.

Let me tell you more about. That person in your daughter's dream. It's okay. Your daughter can go home with him. He'll keep her safe. [00:36:00] Yes. And then the woman, and then she gave her a phone number and said, this is a friend of mine that lives in your city. And at that time we were living in the city that she was from and she said, call her and she'll explain more to you about the prophet ISA.

So this one. Went home. I didn't hear from her. I just heard my friend call me and say, there might be a woman visiting you that's had dreams and she wants to know more about ISA. And so sure enough, a phone call came through. The first thing she said is my daughter died. But she died peacefully. And we all know that she went with the one who came to her and her Treme and said, come home with me.

And we know his name is Esau, but we don't know anything about him. So can my whole family come and meet with you? So you can tell us more about who this ISA is. So based on that dream, [00:37:00] their whole family came the mother and their children. And we, I spent a whole day with. Yes. Going through from Genesis through scriptures to explain who Jesus was as they call him ISA.

And at the end of the day, she says, well, our daughter always with him. So our whole family wants to do the same thing. We went to. East side as well. So what do we do? And it was the most amazing thing. It was close to Christmas time. Eventually she invited us to her home for Christmas. After we had met a few times and celebrated it, even with neighbors that had come over and her story was, my daughter had a dream.

And in that dream, ISA spoke to her and we can't deny the fact that ISA has asking all of our family to follow. So that's how one woman's family was changed. [00:38:00] And I think that's happening in many, many places. That's an incredible story. Thank you for sharing. Wow. And I just have to say it's, it's not that that was easy, but that was easy.

That was definitely a God set up thing that he had done, but it wouldn't have been possible if we hadn't already done own languages and spent years there and already knew it could be in contact with them, but those are the kinds of things that God sets up and you just have to show up for. And. Like a midwife, just catching the baby, you know, it's, it's ready to come.

You just have to be there. They're not all that way. Sometimes it's planting seeds, sometimes it's watering and then sometimes you get to harvest like that. And I think the, yeah, the opportunities it provided necessarily, but not always just dreams or visions or, or miracles, but they don't [00:39:00] always wind up in faith.

And we've met many people who had dreams, very clear revelation. From Jesus' of who he is and they sit with us, discuss it, and then still decide, no, that's not enough. Or it's, I don't believe it. Or I'm not willing to pay the price to leave Islam in order to follow that, even though it's quite clear, you can tell that they are, are, they know who it is, but they don't want to do it.

So it's not always a slam dunk that it always needs to faith. It's a clear revelation. It's what they do with it afterwards. That's their responsibility. Yeah, but I just think it's awesome that how God invites and reaches out and in the darkest of situations in places, it's really amazing. So we've reached a good place to wrap up the first part of this really encouraging an amazing conversation.

Anthony, would you close us in a word of prayer? Sure. I'd love [00:40:00] to. Laura, thank you for these, this land and these people that you love and the land of the Afghans and Lord and all the peoples and all the languages and all the things that you're doing there, and the plans you have for them that are so good to restore them, to heal them, to bring your glory there.

Lord, in the land that has not known before. Representation of, of your body there. Lord, we ask that you would bring forth people from every tribe and tongue and people. And within that nation to worship and glorify, you may you get all the glory from these things that we've said today in Jesus name.

Amen.